We the Citizens is a Atlantic Philanthropies funded initiative which has been holding meetings throughout the country to discuss how those who attend (self selecting and far too many of them use social media) feel about how the country is run.
There has been lots of publicity, numerous political scientists have been analysing the data, the self selection has meant that many attending are middle class, educated and white, there have a lot of tweets from the organisers reporting the ‘ideas’. (A sometimes shocking ignorance on how the country should be run including neglecting or forgetting existence of the Constitution, that council meetings are held in public and other areas of civics, for which the €635k might have been spent showing people how to demand their rights but I digress)
The final stage in this process is a national assembly of ‘citizens’ to take place at the end of this month over a weekend- pollsters are supposed to be RANDOMLY selecting people to take part.
Arrving in to me at the mobile henhouse this evening – Derwin Brennan is one of the ‘lucky’ 150 to be selected – he is so lucky to have a call from one of his friends who works for the polling company. Random yup! Small country or something obviously.
Statement from IPSO/MRBI can be seen here.
I feel that “can’t wait to see what comes out of it” is rather passive in terms of citizenship. These meetings are rather old style, akin to Habermas’s notions of civil society and – again they’re rather elitist. Citizenshsip, as your rightly put it Suzy, is something that we practice/ do/ seek… “meetings” don’t tend to politicize when people aren’t given the tools to seek citizenship rights through moments of . For too long in this country, people have been rendered into passive automatons (and slaves) of church and state, etc. To echo Foucault, where is the inventiveness of this initiative?
I am very uncomfortable about this whole process-The movement is exclusionary (‘citizens’) and as the process has continued i wonder has the whole thing been a big data gathering project for the academics involved with very little focus on the so called ‘selected citizens’.
I am also uncomfortable with the running of the project -selection of the ‘country wide meetings’ I still am confused why Limerick was omitted…bar the reason that there was time issues. The question re is there much difference to what has been discussed at the meetings to what Claiming our Future has done…not from what I have read so far.
This weekend training is to be provided to ‘experienced facilitators’ in preparation for the Citizens Assembly. I was invited (and declined) and was told that a 200 euro fee, accommodation and food paid to attend a training session this Saturday. It was also stressed that only post grad students need apply. Why not include the ‘citizens’ to partake-Why pay 200e?
But the big question is what will happen once the €635k is all spent/wasted? The citizens will still be there…but will they be informed on how to stand up for themselves? Will they have had the power to actually control the outputs-no doubt there will be academic outputs.
Ouch.
That is all.
I attended one of these meetings in Tallaght because I was really interested in the process and was excited about joining in a discussion about how our society can change for the better. Have to say I was very disappointed. People only seemed interested in issues like picking up litter and getting leaflets from local county councillors. Can’t really see how that’s going to change anything. Any attempt to discuss structural change or addressing inequalities went nowhere. I’m afraid its just a middle class talking shop.
I also attended one of the We the Citizen sessions. My sense of it was that it was all very bland and meaningless- consultation for the sake of it ! I was left wondering where all all the contribution will go and how they will they be filtered/used at the citizens assembly (none of which was properly explained by Fiach whatshisface), but above all else I was left wondering where the HELL €630k spent??? considering that claiming our future hosted 2 events with a total of 1,300 people and a series of local events, on a pittance. it really makes me question the strategic thinking over at Atlantic Philanthropies
I wonder if Ruth has 12-15 people with disabilities or long term illnesses as friends that she can recruit? Including people with intellectual disabilities of course, but they are not deemd to be citizens by this or previous governments so maybe that gets them off the hook. We can’t sign the UN convention on the rights of the disabled as our laws are still 19th century.
Or 15 people who were not born in Ireland? The recruitment strategy of IPSOS/MORI will be interesting to read in the final report. I’m sure they are being paid a lot of money for it. Just realised that 40% of those attending should be non voters too.
How much are the 150 people being paid to attend? A hotel in Dublin and their food and a per diem?
Chuck Feeney has spent an awful lot of money in Ireland over the past decade and more. Is there any independent valuation of it’s impact? Or is it all about jobs for the boys and girls who got asked to apply for the dosh?
Statement from IPSOS/MRBI re We the Citizens polling // Jun 9, 2011 at 16:12
[...] response has been received from IPSOS/MRBI via We the Citizens regarding my post yesterday. [...]
Obviously this is middle class talking shop for the middle class – who have been getting such bad press lately that they have to do something to stop working class militancy becoming the norm and workers saying NO, this is not right.
BY middle class I don’t mean anyone who works for a wage or a salary, I mean the usless mangers and Idle Rich who are still very rich on workers backs.
However, the militancy so far has become a damp squib which only amounted to an influx of supposed Leftists who pay Lip Service to change while allowing the working class to carry the burden of middle class debt.
This government was elected to STOP PAYING- now they’ve changed and the Left have allowed it
Before I was censored in Tallaght, not one word was spoken about undoing the unfairness of workers paying for debt they didn’t accumulate. The middle class don’t want to hear this – and were well represented on the floor and in the chair of wethecitizens which is only a safety valve to siphon off any potential Greek like agitation.
We the citizens are only a JOKE which ironically has the same modus operandi of the Salvation Army – give them soup and we’ll win them over to our side.
Workers are adrift as the Utopia of the EEC exposes itself. The rich man’s club [aided and abetted by the Trade Unions] has after only a few short years achieved what it set out to do, ie have the working class in subjection and under-cutting each other for work while the rich getting richer by the month.
Had this government lived up to its pre election promises and not paid anything from workers – but instead told the rich to pay if they wanted, how many would choose to pay AND say it’s our debt.
Because the government has not lived up to its promises the Left should make this country ungovernable until a NEW election is held
I worked in IPSOS when it was TNS MRBI and also worked for another Market researcher, during the Summer, while I was in college.
On several occasions I knew people I had called, and I have since been Randomly Dialled but the RDD system. It happens. This is Ireland, there are a lot less than 6 degrees of separation in Ireland.
The problem with what IPSOS say here, is that it’s not just supposed to be ‘RANDOM’ but also ‘REPRESENTATIVE’ in order to be a proper citizens convention as set out by wethecitizens. And in nothing that they set forth above do they mention any weighting of participants.
So we end up with one hundred and fifty white, middle-class men. Possibly all named Derwin. How did they manage to spend 635k on this muck? They should’ve just thrown up a banner at an L&H meeting, taken a photo and been done with it.
Blatantly everybody involved in it is angling for a job organising the Government’s own Citizens Assembly. Their chair jumped on the gravy train immediately: “you know, Fiach, taking a Senate seat might jeopardise your championing of normal citizens opinions coming first”. Let’s come back in a year and see how many of them are working for the Citizens Assembly. Hopefully none, because this has been a mess.
wearecitizens isn’t meant to change anything itself, its meant to convince the government to hold a citizen assembly, if you think thats a worthy goal….
I attended the we the citizens event in Tallaght. It was interesting – we had some great discussions about how Ireland needs to have values such as equality and rights within a governmental framework. The attendees there were all people who as far as I could see were well educated, middle class, able bodied people (tip to organisers videos with images and text are inaccessible to blind people) who are able to speak for themselves; they have the language, the confidence, the skills, the abilities to do this. I sat at a table with some people I agreed with strongly – in a way deliberately because I knew that a lot of people there were relatively well off and perhaps don’t fully understand life on the margins. (note that I was able to select my own table and perhaps steer the discussion in a particular way because I knew the people at my table were strongly like minded with me) I was talking to a lot of like minded people but I couldn’t hack talking to people who were talking about how great that the little people were being engaged.
It was interesting. We all wanted quite a lot of similar things – a value driven society with things like equality and rights as part of those values, a wealth tax – redistribution of wealth within Irish Society, participatory democracy (more engagement of citizens rather than telling them to volunteer), reformed education system – The problem I had was that our ideas and suggestions all became mushed together and made into bland headings.
I didn’t hear one working class voice at it, I didn’t see one (obvious) physically disabled voice at it, I didn’t meet one person who signed up offline
It was interesting but that’s it – not earth shattering, not engaging with citizens on the margin just middle class able bodied internet users
There is nothing wrong with “middle class” per se. Trouble is that its a terrible vague term that often covers the gap between “priviliged” and “destitute” in a way that often includes people who don’t “look” poor (classic example is private rented sector serfs – there is a huge variety of income levels represented by this group which often undermines the sad lot of many below average earning tenants who cannot afford the better accomodation but get no assistance in paying their feudal masters). That said, it really pisses me off when groups advance “social media” and internet users as authentic representatives of the public in the same way self-selecting quasi elites often appoint themselves as the legitimate representatives of various minority groups. But its not bad because they are “middle class” – in fact I could pick plenty of groups out of ERA who pretty much do exactly the same thing.
This is the ‘Ruth’ referred to above. As Eoin has said, it does happen that callers at IPSOS call their friends by RANDOM. In terms of how the word ‘random’ is being thrown about here- in actual fact, it is very much random. As mentioned, IPSOS MRBI use a system called random digit dialling (RDD) to ensure that a wide cross section of the public is included for the purpose of surveys generally. Having been involved throughout the process of selecting people for the ‘We The Citizens’ event, I can assure you it was all legitimate. We have specific quotas to fill to ensure all people in society and locations are included.
I think ‘We The Citizens’ is an excellent idea. Isn’t it better than sitting around doing nothing!?
In addition, this form of deliberative democracy has worken very well in other countries. I think it is somewhat contradictory that people are complaining about being discriminated against when the same people are assuming Derwin is of a middle class background based on his name.
*All of the above is my own opinion and I am not speaking on behalf of IPSOS MRBI.
Hi Ruth
What quotas were used? did you have quotas for travellers, unemployed people, intellectually disabled people, older people, migrants, low wage earners? or was it just based on women, men and geography?
Deaf and hard of hearing?
While you are not speaking on behalf of the company how can you express an opinion on the cause of your client and not reflect on the impact of that on the research you are conducting? Bias much?
Recruit and do the job you are paid for by all means but in terms of the ethics of social research your advocacy is bizarre – but maybe fits in with the mantra of We are Citizens which is to silence the critic and pretend that all is rosy in the garden. (I’m sure you do think that We are Citizens is a great idea – they are paying your wages!)
PS I think if you might check and see that the assumption was not that people named Derwin were middle class but that the entire process is biased towards the middle class.
Hi Ian and Maman Poulet,
To the best of my knowledge, it was based on age, gender and demographic but I am not to be quoted on that. If you have further questions regarding the selection process, I suggest you contact IPSOS/MRBI or if you have not already done so, read the statement above.
In terms of the ‘We The Citizens’ discussions that are on around the country, as far as I am aware these are of the ‘open door’ type, so it is unfortunate if non middle class people are not attending because I believe they would be very much welcomed.
Also that should be *worked above!
Hi Ruth
Thanks for the answer – what do you mean by demographic?
I don’t think it’s unfortunate that it was and is unrepresentative of many marginalized minorities. I think it’s actually much more unfortunate that deliberate outreach efforts were not made to people from such groups as travellers, blind, deaf, low wage earners etc.It’s almost like the people in charge just wanted to listen their own kind of people; WHAMM – white, heterosexual, able bodied, middle class males and sure throw in a few women for the veneer of equality.
We The Citizens: The Goo Goo Dolls | Tuppenceworth.ie blog // Jun 27, 2011 at 19:05
[...] 8th June, Suzy Byrne reported that one Assembly member was contacted and invited to take part by his friend who worked in MRBI, [...]
(A sometimes shocking ignorance on how the country should be run including neglecting or forgetting existence of the Constitution, that council meetings are held in public and other areas of civics, for which the €635k might have been spent showing people how to demand their rights but I digress)
do you not think that despite the tweet relaying that a person asked for council meetings to be held in public, that the person wasn’t corrected on this issue, and thus some of the 635k was used to show people how to use their rights?
Derwin was sitting at my table during over the weekend. I’m finding out more about We The Citizens now after the event from @Fergal and yourself than the briefings at the assembly itself. I’d identify with the comments above about having interesting discussions with articulate, well informed people over the weekend and in fairness, the crowd did seem very diverse but the proposals did tend to end up as bland headings and the headings of the conversations we had were also quite bland, seemingly arising from a set of assumptions which I didn’t share in some instances.
It was the economic section which irked me the most – our “crisis” and solutions cast very much in stereotypical cut vs. tax terms. No mention of banks, bailouts or bondholders – something which I attempted to rectify. Neither was the notion of a fair share of the revenue from our natural gas put forward as one way of funding our vital services.