Civil Partnership Bill debate Liveblog
Posted by Maman Poulet on 03 Dec 2009 at 11:26 am | Tagged as: Irish Politics, Same Sex Partnerships
As previously announced the Second stage debate on the Civil Partnership Bill will take place on Thursday evening. I’ve had many queries from those who cannot make it to the Dáil to watch about how they can see what is going on (The fact I watch a lot of Dáil live feed seems to amuse many! Well I told you it would come in useful!)
It should all kick off at 6.45 pm – there is a demonstration from LGBT Noise outside at 6pm.
I’ve set up a live blog for the debate and you can watch/listen to the feed and participate in the commentary.
If you just want to watch the debate without the wit, banter and outrage of the viewing masses then you can watch it here.
If you would like to embed the liveblog on your own site please let me know and I can send you the code. (If you want to see what it would look like have a look after the more bit at the end of this post.)
If you are at the debate itself and want to tweet - the tag is #cpbill and we’ll incorporate the tweets into the blog. Blog posts, video, photos etc. are also very welcome.
[...] more about: Uncategorized Suzy has the deails of the liveblog for the second stage of the Civl Partnership Bill coming up before [...]
*sobs*
Unfortunately I’ll be in Brussels, missing the whole thing…
Thanks for setting this up Suzy, will follow the vid online, but not sure about da tweeting yoke.
Me loves soap operas that come with Dail debates: can’t wait for where we’re compared to farm animals or such by some gombeen politico in an ill-fitting toupee? I’m expecting that, will be very miffed if we aren’t properly insulted, it’s de rigeur! Will be watching online, wearing my Jay Brannan ‘I wanna be a housewife’t-shirt.
[...] Posted by Maman Poulet on 03 Dec 2009 at 01:44 am | Tagged as: Irish Politics, Same Sex Partnerships Mary Minihan in today’s Irish Times reports that Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Dermot Ahern, will meet this morning with FF TD’s to discuss matters pertaining to the Civil Partnership Bill before tonights debate. [...]
Its bascially a choice between a little of something and a lot of nothing. Its hardly much of a choice. The “conscience” amendment however, is very, very serious. If this is accepted or even debated at all, it could serve not only to render this legislation of some limited value valueless, it would in fact turn it into a weapon to beat the LGBT community with. The very idea that freedom of conscience means freedom to deny products and services is horrific. Even to allow this to be debated with this totalitarian amendment would do serious damage as the message would be sent out that its ok to be a bigot and expression of such extreme views are a valid and justifiable personal opinion, like preferring Munster over Leinster etc.
The ‘debate’ on civil partnership, if it can be termed as such, highlights some of the deficits in our parliamentary system. While the public seemed to be well represented in the gallery, the representatives of the said public were notable by their absence. Lucinda Creighton obviously got way-laid on the luas.
A number of important deficits in the Bill were noted – the need to set in place a mechanism to recognise civil partnerships obtained in other jurisidictions before the enactment of the legislation, where a civil partner has been pre-deceased; and the issue of children / parental rights (on which the bill is notably silent).
Part of the argument being put forward in some quarters for not addressing parenting is that this may open a door for conflict between ‘children’s rights’ and ‘lgbt rights’. This is a redundant argument as the two should not be seen as conflicting issues.
Notable also, is that the government committed under the Good Friday agreement to ensure equity of rights ‘across the island of Ireland’. There are clear disparities between the legislation that has been enacted in Northern Ireland and that proposed in this Bill – an issue that was not addressed in this debate.
On one level the comments across parties this evening were surprisingly supportive of the idea of equality, non-discrimination etc.- the Republic was invoked a lot. However, the notion that full recognition (marriage or whatever you want to call it) would be a step too far for the public is not one that holds up to much scrutiny. In fact, one could argue that the absence of public representatives in the chamber today means that the ‘public’ are actually perceived not to be too bothered on the issue – begging the question, why enact legislation that is a yellow-pack version of the North’s?
Waylaid on the Luas – love it Nicola! Maybe you can sort her out with a ticket for the train!!
Actually the issue of parenting rights is really hanging over after the Baby Leane case of a couple of years ago. What LGBT activists need is to get up to speed on the proposed childrens referendum. The only reason that “parenting rights” and childrens rights are seen to conflict is because of that case, the objective of the childrens referendum is to make it clear that children are not chattels of a relationship and re-establish it in legal terms in the constitution that their best interest has equal validity in law.
Support for this would at least establish that childrens best interest would not be overriden by things such as the fact that their parents were married or not. Right now a child who is the product of a hetero marriage cannot be considered for adoption, this amendment will end this. I think the outcome of a succesful referendum there will permit more gay-parenting-friendly legislation to be introduced and not open to challenge in the future. Adoption and guardianship rights based on the best interests of the child would ultimately work in our favour rather than against us. The situation right now, lets not forget, is that even though technically single people can adopt, they must have a strong legal connection already to the child, which in real terms means that they are a blood relation. Most single people effectively cannot adopt outside these very limited circumstances which is effectively the same as for gay couples or unmarried couples. I think we need to work together with lone parenting lobbyists and lobbyists working for unmarried parents on this to get an outcome that is fair for all and takes childrens rights on board.
Laura raises some of the key issues about adoption. I see there are perhaps four generic reasons why becoming a parent in one’s own right is problematic. The details cannot be contained in the CP Bill, there is a whole wider issue about children, but it is necessary for the State to commit to finding a ‘way through’ how to legalise and recognise diverse family forms. Most comments I’ve read about children/ adoption in same-sex relationships have come from women, but it is crucial to say than men *are also* interested and invested in being parents.
My limited understanding is that applying to adopt is a long-shot given the numbers of children in care who are available who are eligible for adoption. Numbers available are part of the ‘technical’ problem to becoming a parent.
Secondly, the status of the child is an issue if a parent exist elsewhere. It should be possible to adopt the child of one’s same-sex partner, but if there is a bio-parent from a prior relationship (usually a father) it is then not possible to have three parents.
Thirdly, there is a heterosexual bias. I know someone, in a same-sex relationship, who was trying to get a foster child and was subjected to an inordinate about of ‘assessment’ (more than heterosexual couples who were being inducted with them), and he felt there was also an ingrained bias about placing a child with a gay couple.
Fourthly, it comes down to money – perhaps more so if your the non-child bearing type. Personally, I favour going for surrogacy, and there are options available (if ya have about €40K available) and there are interesting overseas agencies I have briefly looked into, such as iwannagetpregnant.com in India. I confess I also mooch in mommas & poppas… there, I said it… money is too tight to mention at present to make anything happen for a while. But my basic point is, there needs to be a breakthrough about recognising families (plural) and the CP Bill could usefully – at least- open the door on that if not much more.