Dermot Ahern and Same Sex Families
Posted by Maman Poulet on 11 May 2008 at 09:04 pm | Tagged as: Irish Politics, LGBT, Lesbian, Marriage Equality, Same Sex Partnerships
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Last week’s reshuffle has no doubt caused a headache for those campaigning on the matter of recognising same sex relationships. From initial research and remembering the announcement of a new Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform may well have given lesbians and gay men and their organisations a significant migraine.
I go back to June 1993 for my initial diagnosis – the Dáil debates on the decriminialisation of homosexuality (yes 15 years ago next month). Dermot Ahern TD. was a backbencher at the time and spoke at the second stage of the Sexual Offences Bill. I have republished his speech below – it to flog a phrase to death, makes for interesting reading.
Mr. D. Ahern: I do not often find myself in agreement with my constituency colleague, Deputy McGahon, [MP adds - FG TD for Louth and vociferous opponent of decriminialisation of homosexuality] but on this occasion I am. Perhaps it has something to do with the atmosphere in our constituency.
A Deputy: Sellafield.
Mr. D. Ahern: I have reservations about this legislation. I have already made these views known privately to the Fianna Fáil Parliamentary Party and the Minister.
Reference has been made to our international obligations. However, no reference seems to have been made to the Constitution of this Republic. I wish to give some Members of the House food for thought by quoting from the Constitution.
Article 40.1 states:
– All citizens shall, as human persons, be held equal before the law.
– This shall not be held to mean that the State shall not in its enactments have due regard to differences of capacity, physical and moral, and of social function.
That question bears some thought. In regard to the family, Article 41.1.1º states:
‘- The State recognises the Family as the natural primary and fundamental unit group of Society, and as a moral institution possessing inalienable and imprescriptible rights, antecedent and superior to all positive law.
Article 41.1.2º states:
The State, therefore, guarantees to protect the Family in its constitution and authority …
Article 45, which outlines the directive principles of social policy, states:
– The principles of social policy set forth in this Article are intended for the general guidance of the Oireachtas. The application of those principles in the making of laws shall be the care of the Oireachtas exclusively …
Article 45.1 states:
The State shall strive to promote the welfare of the whole people by securing and protecting as effectively as it may a social order in which justice and charity shall inform all the institutions of the national life.
I am not being intolerant in my remarks. Anyone who knows me well knows that I am a very tolerant person. As legislators, we have a duty to legislate for the common good. We seem to have reached the stage where we are legislating for pressure and minority groups. We have a duty to consider what is in the common good of all the people and to legislate for that. We should not legislate for hard cases, I do not say this in any intolerant way but we should legislate for the common good.
Reference was made to our international obligations. We have a duty to legislate for the standards and norms which we regard as appropriate for the Irish people. This does not necessarily have to include all the people, but we should strive to achieve a certain standard and norm in our society. The Houses of the Oireachtas have the primary function of laying down rules for the people and the standards they should strive to achieve, and we should never forget that.
I quoted from Article 41 of the Constitution which deals with the position of the family in our society. Many countries, including Britain, are now looking at why families are breaking down. The tragic murder of the young Bolger child in England led to people questioning why society is breaking down in that country. One of the reasons given for the breakdown of society is that the family unit is breaking down. We should strive to protect the family unit as the primary unit in our society. That is not to say that families do not break up — of course they do — but we should aspire to attain that. I think most Deputies would agree with those sentiments.
It was stated that we would be in breach of the charter of the European Court of Human Rights if we did not introduce legislation to implement its decision. I do not for one minute accept that we have to implement this decision. Britain has decided to derogate from the Social Charter and, in effect, from European monetary union. Yet, business is still being conducted and no one seems to have taken the British Government to task for this.
Much play is made of the word “equality�, for example, equality in regard to the age limit. I wonder if this issue will end here. Will the pressure groups which have succeeded in having this legislation brought before the House stop here? I think not. Will we eventually see the day in this country when, as has happened in the USA, homosexuals will seek the right to adopt children? We should think seriously about this possibility.
I have a problem with the age limit of 17 years. I appreciate that the Minister is endeavouring to equalise the age limits for both homosexuals and heterosexuals. However, under the child care legislation passed by this House a child is defined as anyone under the age of 18 years. We should bear this in mind.
I have a problem with the provisions on prostitution. I understood that the norm in Europe was to liberalise the laws on prostitution but——’
And with that Deputy Ahern stopped speaking to share the time with another colleague. If you wish to see what he was agreeing with Deputy Brendan McGahon about well you can read it here. But here’s a punchline from Deputy McGahon’s speech so you get the gist…
‘Homosexuality is a departure from normality and while homosexuals deserve our compassion they do not deserve our tolerance. That is how the man in the street thinks. I know of no homosexual who has been discriminated against. Such people have a persecution complex because they know they are different from the masses or normal society. They endure inner torment and it is not a question of the way others view them.
The Lord provided us with sexual organs for a specific purpose. Homosexuals are like left hand drivers driving on the right hand side of the road. The Minister should seek a derogation from the ruling of the European Court to prevent this unacceptable legislation being foisted on the Irish people. I remind the Minister that the age of consent has been reduced to 12 years in Holland. Will we have to accept such an appalling move in years to come? Many Members of the Minister’s party are very unhappy about this legislation although some of them have expressed their support for it. The Minister should put the issue to the people in a referendum.’
Those were the days..
And what of the days to come? The Heads of Bill on the Civil Partnerships legislation is now delayed by over a month. Minister Ahern may not have it so high on his agenda (if it were ever that high on Brian Lenihan’s).
Homosexuality is a departure from normality and while homosexuals deserve our compassion they do not deserve our tolerance.
The Lord provided us with sexual organs for a specific purpose. Homosexuals are like left hand drivers driving on the right hand side of the road.
That is unbelievable.
Wasn’t the previous Minister for Equality, Conor “Let them eat kebabs” Lenihan?
For the next cabinet reshuffle they’ll probably bring in Fred Phelps.
Conor Lenihan was Junior Minister with responsibility for Overseas Development, Following that infamous remark Conor was appointed and currently is Junior Minister with responsibility for Integration (yeah intercultural/immigration/new Ireland issues)
As for Dermot Ahern, well I look forward to his first speech as a supporter of equality for same sex couples. I’ not quite sure which part of the McGahon speech he was referring to when he said he was in agreement. His own speech was worrying enough for me!
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Yep, I thought McGahon was in cahoots with Ahern, thanks for the timely reminder.Whispers of ‘not gone away you know’ comes into my mind. I’m now offically appalled.
While you make an interesting point about how Cowen has important thoughts when unfettered by civil servants/ political minders, what concerns me is whether Cowen appointed him in full knowledge of Ahern’s past statements. While many of us are appalled to revisit Ahern’s past comments, I’m also deeply ambivalent about the famous quote from Bertie’s speech to GLEN really meant (the one held at the opening of premises that were already open)… are we back to the stonewalling tactics of Ray Burke? Bertie could have been talking about heterosexuality from that quote…
“That is how the man in the street thinks. I know of no homosexual who has been discriminated against. Such people have a persecution complex because they know they are different from the masses or normal society. ”
I love the way he invokes the man in the street here to justify what are clearly views that have been given as much thought before expression as a Burmese government press release.
It is a measure of how ‘far we have come’ by the fact that he has the appearance of being a “reasonable FF minister”.
“The Lord provided us with sexual organs for a specific purpose. Homosexuals are like left hand drivers driving on the right hand side of the road.”
I’m shockingly confused by this metaphor, is it that he was opposed to left hand drivers because they were at that time driving on the right or that this law was intended to allow the left hand drivers drive on the left while the right handed continued to drive on the right? Or was it that they were banned from driving up to then but would now be driving on the right with inadequate training and equipment? Did he make his views on the inappropriateness of left hand drive in general known to our EU colleagues while as minister for FA?
In my views I defer to Tom Dunne and co, when they were with Something Happens, who said “what kind of God would give you a rod and say you can’t go fishing?”
Something of an aside but Máire Geoghegan-Quinn is proof positive that FF is not immune from having capable and sensible people from time to time.
Well we don’t know how much of Deputy McGahon’s speech Dermot actually agreed with – I see most commenters are reflecting on the words of Deputy McGahon rather than Dermot Ahern’s words – just to make it clear.
And as for the [now] Minister’s words – I found these the most interesting…
As legislators, we have a duty to legislate for the common good. We seem to have reached the stage where we are legislating for pressure and minority groups. We have a duty to consider what is in the common good of all the people and to legislate for that. We should not legislate for hard cases, I do not say this in any intolerant way but we should legislate for the common good.
Reference was made to our international obligations. We have a duty to legislate for the standards and norms which we regard as appropriate for the Irish people. This does not necessarily have to include all the people, but we should strive to achieve a certain standard and norm in our society. The Houses of the Oireachtas have the primary function of laying down rules for the people and the standards they should strive to achieve, and we should never forget that.
I quoted from Article 41 of the Constitution which deals with the position of the family in our society. Many countries, including Britain, are now looking at why families are breaking down. The tragic murder of the young Bolger child in England led to people questioning why society is breaking down in that country. One of the reasons given for the breakdown of society is that the family unit is breaking down. We should strive to protect the family unit as the primary unit in our society. That is not to say that families do not break up — of course they do — but we should aspire to attain that. I think most Deputies would agree with those sentiments.
What a toxic set of quotes. Has anyone challenged Ahern on these vile comments since? Has he issued any retraction, or changed his position, do you know?
Just on a point about sharing time. Normally that is agreed before hand. It does not imply that Deputy Ahern agreed with Deputy McGahon. The whip alotted the time.
But still an interesting post Maman!
eek reread post and see that he said he does agree! oops my bad! delete if you want!
[...] Equality and Law Reform.Maman Poulet highlights Dermot Aherns attitude towards the Gays in "Dermot Ahern and Same Sex Families". She writes Quote: Mr. D. Ahern: I do not often find myself in agreement with my [...]
Maman, it appeared in the original casting of the post that the punchline was in reference Dermot Ahern’s own comments. Now that I’m aware that the comments are from the Fine Gael TD for Louth Deputy Brendan McGahon I naturally as a member of the same party have to reappraise the comments. Hmmm…
So on mature reflection, may I say that I find the comments to be horse manure of the highest order.
With his trenchant defence of the family I’m given to wonder what Dermot might have had to say about the divorce referendum.
Yes Dan – I have subsequently tried to make it clearer who said what – There is a lot more interesting commentary to be made – on reading between the lines and actually focussing on what Dermot Ahern actually said than in the not surprising (to those of us who were involved at the time) intolerance of Deputy McGahon.
I have a further post coming tonight on issues to do with Dermot Ahern and statements he has made on other moral issues.
Well spotted, my dear – what appallingly reactionary comments, even in the early 90s. I had heard rumours that he was an opponent of civil partnerships at cabinet, but this is the first time I’ve seen anything that would provide credence to those rumours.
You’re right, Maman, the actual quotes from Ahern are just as revealing as McGahon’s full-on nastiness. Indeed, making a link (however tenuous) between decriminalising same-sex activity and the Bolger murders is in its way even nastier than calling us ‘left hand drivers’. (Does that mean we’ve only one hand on the wheel? And if so, why?)
Despite our new Taoiseach’s speeches about diversity, I have a bad feeling about his stance on things like LGB rights and same sex partnerships- I wouldn’t imagine there’s many votes to be had in Offaly if he were to support us perves. I think you’re right MP- Brian has put Dermot there for a reason. But hey- its a challenge, maybe now this will add an impetus to talk about equality in a substantive way instead of getting side-tracked into marriage debates.
And as for the Bolger child murder- thats so disgusting a reference to back up his conservative view that its beneath contempt. How dare he use a child’s murder by other children to vindicate his position on LGB rights.
Absolutely agree with Marie’s sentiments on the Bolger reference, that was utterly dispictable, but Ahern needs to be called out on his pronouncements: does he agree with them now or has he recanted. We also need to look more extensively at his past ‘form’. From what I have seen (thanks to Suzy’s digout day), I will take no left-handed lessons from this man.
We are now well into a period of what Nuala O’Faolain termed ’speakings out’, that it the public disclosure of sexual stories (good and bad ones), and I just think that Ahern is just out of touch about sexuality and sexual politics… while Marie is right to raise concerns, I think there’s no way FF can turn back the clock.
To boot, the more I think about it, the more annoyed I am, how dare he have maintained that
“… We have a duty to legislate for the standards and norms which we regard as appropriate for the Irish people. This does not necessarily have to include all the people, but we should strive to achieve a certain standard and norm in our society. The Houses of the Oireachtas have the primary function of laying down rules for the people and the standards they should strive to achieve, and we should never forget that”.
The Dail has no moral monopoly to decide the fate of people, given the morality of several cabinet members at the time, the emergence of child sexual abuse and the scurrilous corruption of leading political figures. The talk about diversity is all very well, but that’s all it is.
Take Bertie’s well-used quote [posted on GLEN's website]… it could actually be read as referring to heterosexuality as much as anything else. We’re being long-fingered and not in a good way about a whole host of issues about GLBT sexual rights.
Ahern needs to vindicate his earlier views, and the Taoiseach needs to clarify how he could have appointed Ahern, and he need to clearly state the heralded legislation will be honoured. If this is not forthcoming, the Greens should leave the cabinet table…
Let’s see will GLEN or NGLF will say to all of this. I’m guessing nothing at all. The Bolger comments need to be raised again and again and should never be forgotten.
Also interesting, I think, is that Ahern’s direct report Sean Power (possibly until today if he is moved in the shuffle of junior ministers) made one of the most human speeches in favour of decriminalisation in the 1993 debate:
“I attended my first disco as a teenager and, like thousands of other young men throughout the country, I went in the hope of meeting some understanding female.
[interruption deleted by moi]
Nevertheless, I enjoyed my teenage years, the parties, discos and dances. Female company is a wonderful thing. I enjoyed the craic and all that goes with being single.
[other stuff deleted]
For too long we have made jokes about homosexuals instead of trying to understand them. The time has come for people to show tolerance, compassion and understanding to all our people.
Taken in total, his speech was not a bright example of totally enlightened understanding (at one stage he says, referring to his marriage: “ I pity homosexuals because they cannot share the same type of relationship as the one I enjoy“), but it clearly deminstrates a strong sense of fellow humanity with lgb people.
Sean, the Greens wouldn’t leave the cabinet if Cowen was to lease land in Leitrim for the storage of spent nuclear waste, they’re not going to go over this.
Real hypocrisy isn’t saying one thing and doing the opposite simply because you’re weak and all too human; it is saying something you don’t believe in and doing the exactly opposite because you believe the rules don’t apply to you.
If you read the debates more you will read Derek McDowell called Ahern on the reference to Jamie Bolgers murder at the time. I have to say – reading Micheal McDowells speech – I’m beginning to wonder would he have been better in terms of gay rights in Justice than any current FFer
I’ve a question for those who were activists in 93 – Did Brendan McGahon say something on the late late show along the lines of people found guilty of buggery should be hung?
I was being facetious Dan! Of course the Greens won’t fall on their sword over this issue, or any other. They’ve started to enjoy a cozy relationship with political power and late capitalism, and have shifted to a position of tax the problems away! In Gollum’s words, they’re tricksy and false.
More generally, it is starting to demonstrate how FF is rediscovering its ‘traditional’ roots, and that does not bode well for minorities in Irish society.
very revealing indeed. Thanks for finding this and I wonder what hope there is that his views have changed…
Sean, I was aiming for hyperbole myself but I suspect it came off more caustic than that.
Joe, don’t be surprised to find that Dermo has no ‘views’ on anything at all these days. Ministers don’t do views or opinions in Ireland any more. They look at things in the round and try to arrive a totality of understanding. That sort of thing.
Saw you on the front page of the Sunday Times this morning! Absolutely disgusted by Ahern and his attempts to wriggle out of this.
You go, you page one gal! I don’t buy FF TDs evolving over the past 15 years… Brian Finnegan is being way too polite when he should be publicly challenging this point rather than assuming evolution extends to the soldiers of density.
If Dermo doesn’t have any views Dan, it’s cos Brian has his testicles in a jar along with the cajones of the rest of the cabinet… except the Tanaiste, who’s definitely keeping hers. She’s waiting in the wings, you’ll see.
[...] am | Tagged as: Irish Politics, Marriage Equality, Same Sex Partnerships Mark Tighe covered the Dermot Ahern speech I postedg last week in yesterday’s Sunday Times and followed up with queries to people involved in [...]
[...] cohabitants is one step closer to the statute book – wonder what the comment will be from Minister Dermot Ahern – also read Future Taoiseach’s post on this from some days ago. Money quote: Head 123: [...]
[...] it is not all that easy for Government to move on this issue, with the relevant Minister having a history of issues with homosexuality, not to mention the considerable number of reactionaries who continue to dominate the FF [...]
[...] it is not all that easy for Government to move on this issue, with the relevant Minister having a history of issues with homosexuality, not to mention the considerable number of reactionaries who continue to dominate the FF [...]
A lot has changed in 15 years
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-9361.html
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[...] stone to marriage” and that marriage is “preserved” and “guarded” – was in 1993 opposed to the decriminalisation of homosexuality. Yes indeed, and this is a matter of public [...]